PowerChurch V9--Great backups, but can't backup to HardDisk?

gwbowers · Post by **gwbowers** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:47 pm

I like the backup for V9, but am used to also keeping a backup on the harddisk drive (in addition to the offline one). This means that I don't have to go get the CD from storage if I want to do a quick restore (copy is online), or I can make a quick online incremental snapshot before I post several different types/dates of information. Once everything is looking fine, then I do the final daily backup.

How do I get a online disk backup from PowerChurch v9 utilities menu?

jeffkoke · Post by **jeffkoke** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:36 am

Short answer: you don't (at least to my knowledge).

You could write a script/batchfile to automatically copy the PowerChurch data set to another HD or partition/directory location on a periodic basis.

We have one that runs every night on the server. I also backup to CD on an aperiodic basis and have a full copy of the fileset at home.

This is a nice idea to have added to the feature set.

Jeff

Post by **Zaphod** » Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:09 am

Here's the short answer: A backup isn't a backup unless it's off the computer. That's why we require backups to be made to removable media. A backup to your harddrive doesn't do much good when your harddrive fails. Also, you should be taking any vital data (and we assume your PowerChurch data is pretty vital) off-site in the event of some catastophe. The argument that Gary provides is a compelling one - backup to a location that can be archived on a tape backup, but unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of users don't have anything approaching this type of setup.

If it helps, it would be really handy for us to be able to restore data from the hard disk for support purposes, too.

It's probably something that will be included eventually, because a lot of people are asking for it, and it would be handy to just backup to a network drive, but it didn't make it into 9. Sorry.

NeilZ · Post by **NeilZ** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:35 pm

Zaphod wrote:Here's the short answer: A backup isn't a backup unless it's off the computer. That's why we require backups to be made to removable media. A backup to your harddrive doesn't do much good when your harddrive fails. Also, you should be taking any vital data (and we assume your PowerChurch data is pretty vital) off-site in the event of some catastophe. The argument that Gary provides is a compelling one - backup to a location that can be archived on a tape backup, but unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of users don't have anything approaching this type of setup.

If it helps, it would be really handy for us to be able to restore data from the hard disk for support purposes, too.

It's probably something that will be included eventually, because a lot of people are asking for it, and it would be handy to just backup to a network drive, but it didn't make it into 9. Sorry.

OK .. how about a capability to allow the administrator to setup a default backup location on a networked drive, such as a computer used by the treasurer, or a standalone hard drive using a network storage link such as those now being offered by Linksys ??

jeffkoke · Post by **jeffkoke** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:42 am

Ok, let's get technical.

How about a default setting called "nearline store," "online store" or some such?

That would provide the ability to point to a local or network drive so that the more advanced admin can perform an "online backup." Yes, I realize that phrase is an oxymoron.

The next question: Will it make the GICOD?

My $.07 worth,

Jeff

Post by **Zaphod** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:13 am

Good ideas have no cutoff date!

I have been talking to one of the developers this morning, and we've been thinking about how this could happen. For the most part, it looks like any major change to the functionality of the backup/restore procedure would basically mean a rewrite of that whole thing. However, there may be a couple of things that could change that wouldn't require waiting for the next version. We're going to discuss these changes, because they would have very limited functionality, but it might be a start.

No promises!!

Post by **Zaphod** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:47 am

OK, here's the idea:

Any major changes to the backup/restore process will require a total rewrite of those functions, and it is something planned for a future release. To do that now would require changes in documentation, and a change in several other areas of the program. In short, that's not going to happen. However, we recognize and understand the arguements discussed here, and think there may be a short-term solution.

We can enable backup to a network drive with the following limitations:
* The drive has to be mapped (no \\unc names).
* The backup will only be saved to the root of that mapped drive - no subfolders.
* All mapped drives would be listed - you can't choose to supress a drive.
* Any person authorized to make a backup would be able to backup to a network drive.
* The network drive cannot have less than 3MB total space.
* This still doesn't give you access to backup to your local hard drive (unless you're clever).

When I say "short-term" solution, I mean until at least the next release of PowerChurch Plus. Given that our release cycle is 18-24 months, and we just released v9 last month...

So, would this be an acceptable solution to get by until we can rewrite the backup/restore function properly?

NeilZ · Post by **NeilZ** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:20 pm

Zaphod wrote:OK, here's the idea:

Any major changes to the backup/restore process will require a total rewrite of those functions, and it is something planned for a future release. To do that now would require changes in documentation, and a change in several other areas of the program. In short, that's not going to happen. However, we recognize and understand the arguements discussed here, and think there may be a short-term solution.

We can enable backup to a network drive with the following limitations:
* The drive has to be mapped (no \\unc names).
* The backup will only be saved to the root of that mapped drive - no subfolders.
* All mapped drives would be listed - you can't choose to supress a drive.
* Any person authorized to make a backup would be able to backup to a network drive.
* The network drive cannot have less than 3MB total space.
* This still doesn't give you access to backup to your local hard drive (unless you're clever).

When I say "short-term" solution, I mean until at least the next release of PowerChurch Plus. Given that our release cycle is 18-24 months, and we just released v9 last month...

So, would this be an acceptable solution to get by until we can rewrite the backup/restore function properly?

Looks pretty good for what I'd like to do !!

Kevin H · Post by **Kevin H** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:35 am

What is the backup in Version 9?
It is now October 2004.
I would upgrade if I could backup to the hard drive. I would like to back up to a USB key or a zip drive using windows explorer. Having the option to backup to the hard drive is convenient. Other software allow it. PowerChurch is the only software I know that doesn't.
Floppies are unreliable.
Do the newer versions allow backing up to an external media other than a floppy? With out a script batch file.

Post by **Zaphod** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:34 am

KevinH wrote:Do the newer versions allow backing up to an external media other than a floppy?

Yes. v8 added the ability to backup to ZIP drives. v8.5 added the ability to backup on a CD-R/RW. Somewhere in there, the ability to backup to a USB key occurred by happy coincidence. What you can't do is backup to your hard drive or to a network drive. Yet.

What I'm proposing here is the ability to backup to a network drive so a network admin could easily include that in a tape backup. It looks like this could be a change made in a maintenance release, and wouldn't require waiting for the next version. Anything more than what I've detailed above is going to require a rewrite of the backup/restore functionality, and that's not feasible at this time.

If you want to backup using Windows Explorer, you can just make a copy of your data folder and store that somewhere. However, if you do that, you run the risk of copying your data back into the data folder and creating duplicate files. This will cause all sorts of weird problems if that happens.

Kevin H · Post by **Kevin H** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:19 am

Backing up to a USB key is good news indeed. I understand what you mean about data folder. Not a good idea. Backing a 1,089 KB file to a CD seems excessive. We also take advantage of e-mailing the backup file.
Thanks again for your prompt response.
Kevin

Post by **Zaphod** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:00 pm

The good thing about the CD backup is you can store multiple backups on a single CD (same thing applies to any removable storage with more than 3MB total capacity), so you can have an archival backup. You can just keep using the same CD until it's full, and if you have to roll back to a previous backup, you can do so. So, it's not as wasteful as it may seem at first.

jeffkoke · Post by **jeffkoke** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:17 pm

I backup to a USB "thumb" drive all of the time. That is how I transfer the fielset to my CPU at home...and I also drop the different archive/zip files to a CD as needed.

I really like the ability to pick what I want to backup. Since, I do not want to clutter the backup with old photos that might be in PC+. I need to go through and ensure that any photos are removed and potentially replace them with more current copies now that v9 can handle a higher resolution!

Jeff

Kevin H · Post by **Kevin H** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:29 pm

I have ordered the version 9. I am looking forward to using it.
Kevin

Post by **Zaphod** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:01 pm

The discussed feature has been added as of the 10/12/2004 maintenance release.