User Support Forum

I am trying to reconcile our bank accounts and I think I messed things up.

We have 3 funds (General, Youth, Building) and 3 bank accounts (General-Chequing, Youth-Savings, Building-Savings)
All cheques and deposits are written/deposited on the General fund and then monies need to be transferred from or to the savings accounts as required.

I have the contribution module setup to apply any building fund or youth fund donations directly to the applicable fund's income account but all monies are deposited into the chequing account at the bank.

How do I record the transfer of money from the general fund to either the youth fund or building fund? I can't seem to get my bank reconciliation to balance.

bayparktreasurer wrote:I am trying to reconcile our bank accounts and I think I messed things up.

We have 3 funds (General, Youth, Building) and 3 bank accounts (General-Chequing, Youth-Savings, Building-Savings)
All cheques and deposits are written/deposited on the General fund and then monies need to be transferred from or to the savings accounts as required.

I have the contribution module setup to apply any building fund or youth fund donations directly to the applicable fund's income account but all monies are deposited into the chequing account at the bank.

How do I record the transfer of money from the general fund to either the youth fund or building fund? I can't seem to get my bank reconciliation to balance.

All funds are deposited in the one operating/general checking account, yet you're assigning income to the other accounting funds. Its no wonder that you're having issues. What do you have setup in each Contribution Fund as the Checking account? I'm assuming that you show the General/Operating Fund checking account, right?

How do you transfer the funds, online?

I suspect that you are not showing any deposits into the other accounting fund checking accounts. Try this:

1. Do a backup of the Accounting Database using the Powerchurch backup utility.
2. Enter a transaction in the Funds Accounting enter transaction function like this:

01-1110-000 Operation/General Checking CR $150.00
02-1210-000 Youth Savings DB $150.00

You will get a messaging saying that you're using two accounting funds, click on OK.
Then post this. Check to see if this updated the Youth Savings, it should also update the Unrestricted net assets of that Accounting Fund.

3. If this does not work, restore the Accounting backup done in step 1.

Let us know if it worked, or not.

NeilZ wrote:All funds are deposited in the one operating/general checking account, yet you're assigning income to the other accounting funds. Its no wonder that you're having issues. What do you have setup in each Contribution Fund as the Checking account? I'm assuming that you show the General/Operating Fund checking account, right?

In the contribution module I have the building fund debit to 02-1120-000 which is the Building Fund savings account and the youth group fund debit to 03-1125-000 which is the Youth Group savings account.
In Fund 02 (Building Fund) I have 02-1115-000 General Chequing account and 02-1120-000 Building Fund Savings account.
In Fund 03 (Youth Group Fund) I have 03-1115-000 General Chequing account and 03-1125-000 Youth Group Savings account.

NeilZ wrote: How do you transfer the funds, online?

Yes.

NeilZ wrote: I suspect that you are not showing any deposits into the other accounting fund checking accounts. Try this:

1. Do a backup of the Accounting Database using the Powerchurch backup utility.
2. Enter a transaction in the Funds Accounting enter transaction function like this:

01-1110-000 Operation/General Checking CR $150.00
02-1210-000 Youth Savings DB $150.00

You will get a messaging saying that you're using two accounting funds, click on OK.
Then post this. Check to see if this updated the Youth Savings, it should also update the Unrestricted net assets of that Accounting Fund.

3. If this does not work, restore the Accounting backup done in step 1.

Let us know if it worked, or not.

When I tried the above it updated the Youth Savings (shown on the balance sheet) but it did not update the unrestricted net assets.

bayparktreasurer wrote:
In the contribution module I have the building fund debit to 02-1120-000 which is the Building Fund savings account and the youth group fund debit to 03-1125-000 which is the Youth Group savings account.
In Fund 02 (Building Fund) I have 02-1115-000 General Chequing account and 02-1120-000 Building Fund Savings account.
In Fund 03 (Youth Group Fund) I have 03-1115-000 General Chequing account and 03-1125-000 Youth Group Savings account.

OK ... the checking accounts use the same basic number xx-1115-000, this is normal if you use the same account across funds. Is this checking account also used in Operations.

When I tried the above it updated the Youth Savings (shown on the balance sheet) but it did not update the unrestricted net assets.

Hmmm .... you may have to use 'transfer accounts'. However, depending on the answer given to my checking account question, there may be an easier way.

If all contributions are being deposited into your General-Chequing account 1115 you need to have every contribution fund depositing (Debit Account) a 1115 account in the correct fund; Building Funds would go to 02-1115-000 Youth Group Funds would go to 03-1115-00.

When you actually do the transfer between accounts it will look like this.
The example is transfer from the checking account to the savings account in the Youth Fund (03)
Example:
(Debit) (Credit)
03-1115-000 General-Chequing Transfer to Savings 1000.00
03-1125-000 Youth Group Savings Transfer from Checking 1000.00

No need for transfer accounts if you keep everything in the current fund from the start.

Since it sounds like the bank will have multiple transactions the deposit of Sunday donations then a transfer to or from savings, we need to record both transactions in PowerChurch. The only way to have an accurate record is to record what is actually happening at the bank. Telling PowerChurch that the deposits went directly to the savings is only accurate if that what is actually happening at the bank. Many churches simply deposit the Sunday donations into the checking account and then transfer specific amounts to accounts designated for restricted funds. You can never go wrong documenting everything that happened in the real world into PowerChurch that is the correct way to do things after all.

missymaven wrote:If all contributions are being deposited into your General-Chequing account 1115 you need to have every contribution fund depositing (Debit Account) a 1115 account in the correct fund; Building Funds would go to 02-1115-000 Youth Group Funds would go to 03-1115-00.

When you actually do the transfer between accounts it will look like this.
The example is transfer from the checking account to the savings account in the Youth Fund (03)
Example:
(Debit) (Credit)
03-1115-000 General-Chequing Transfer to Savings 1000.00
03-1125-000 Youth Group Savings Transfer from Checking 1000.00

No need for transfer accounts if you keep everything in the current fund from the start.

Since it sounds like the bank will have multiple transactions the deposit of Sunday donations then a transfer to or from savings, we need to record both transactions in PowerChurch. The only way to have an accurate record is to record what is actually happening at the bank. Telling PowerChurch that the deposits went directly to the savings is only accurate if that what is actually happening at the bank. Many churches simply deposit the Sunday donations into the checking account and then transfer specific amounts to accounts designated for restricted funds. You can never go wrong documenting everything that happened in the real world into PowerChurch that is the correct way to do things after all.

This is a good way of doing this provided the operations checking account is the same checking account used across the funds. The account number given for the Youth and Building funds is not the usual DEFAULT checking account number used in Powerchurch, which is xx-1110-000.

If the checking account is the same across all three funds, then all you need to do is setup Contributions to post to the proper checking account for each fund. So if funds come in for building, then you would have it post to CREDIT 02-1115-000 checking, and DEBIT Building Fund Income 02-4xxx-000 to reflect that income. You would then enter the transaction shown above to move the funds to savings. The bank statement will reflect the deposit to the checking, and the reconciliation will agree as it consolidates all checking transactions using the same Powerchurch account number.

However, if the checking account is different in operations, and that's the account you deposit all your Sunday offerings in, then you can't do what was listed. So please get back with the answer to the question Do all three Accounting Funds use the same checking account?

Yes, the checking account is the same across all 3 funds. The reason it is not the default xx-1110-000 is because we used to deal with a different bank and the xx-1110-000 is for that bank so when we changed I just created a new account for the new bank account. Is that what I should have done or should I have done something differently?

bayparktreasurer wrote:Yes, the checking account is the same across all 3 funds. The reason it is not the default xx-1110-000 is because we used to deal with a different bank and the xx-1110-000 is for that bank so when we changed I just created a new account for the new bank account. Is that what I should have done or should I have done something differently?

No you're fine.

What I would do is instead of using the 01-1115-000 checking account in the Contributions Fund setup, use the proper checking account for the Accounting Fund instead.

You should have a Tithes and Offerings account in each one of those funds, if not ADD IT ... use the same tithes and offerings account number as you do for operations.

In Accounting Fund Setup, just point the Building Accounting fund to the 02-1115-000 checking account, and the 02-4110-000 (I'm assuming) Tithes and offerings account.

Then when you move the funds to savings all you have to do is enter this transaction in Funds Accounting:

02-1115-000 Building Checking CR $150.00
02-1210-000 Building Savings DB $150.00

When you do the Posting from Contributions to the proper accounting fund (02 or 03), the system will properly update the accounting funds. When you do the transfer from checking to Savings, the system will account for that, and it will all show up when you do the checking account reconcilation with the statement from the bank.

NeilZ wrote:What I would do is instead of using the 01-1115-000 checking account in the Contributions Fund setup, use the proper checking account for the Accounting Fund instead.

Ok, so for the Building Fund currently I have it debiting account 02-1120-000 Building Fund savings account and crediting account 02-4035-000 Building Fund income account. But based on your reply below, I should have it crediting 02-4030-000 Tithes & Offerings income account instead?

NeilZ wrote:You should have a Tithes and Offerings account in each one of those funds, if not ADD IT ... use the same tithes and offerings account number as you do for operations.

Ok, I've done that. I have 4030-000 Tithes & Offerings active and showing in all 3 funds.
Now, I had created a 4035-000 Building Fund account and a 4040-000 Youth Group account but if I'm using the 4030-000 Tithes & Offerings I won't need those other 2, correct?

NeilZ wrote: In Accounting Fund Setup, just point the Building Accounting fund to the 02-1115-000 checking account, and the 02-4110-000 (I'm assuming) Tithes and offerings account.

I'm sorry, what do you mean, point the Building Accounting fund to the chequing account?

bayparktreasurer wrote:

NeilZ wrote:What I would do is instead of using the 01-1115-000 checking account in the Contributions Fund setup, use the proper checking account for the Accounting Fund instead.

Ok, so for the Building Fund currently I have it debiting account 02-1120-000 Building Fund savings account and crediting account 02-4035-000 Building Fund income account. But based on your reply below, I should have it crediting 02-4030-000 Tithes & Offerings income account instead?

Partially ... you really do NOT need a separate 'income' account for Building Fund income. Its all tithes and offerings. You should also be using the 02 CHECKING account as the banking (debit) account in Contributions. This is why the reconciliation is not going well. You're showing the deposit into Savings, and thus the deposit does not appear on the checking account reconciliation.

It has to be a two step process. First the deposit from Contributions, then a transaction entered in Funds Accounting to MOVE the funds from checking to Savings. In this manner you will show the original deposit, then the transfer to savings in the checking reconciliation, then when you reconcile the savings, you'll see that deposit.

NeilZ wrote:You should have a Tithes and Offerings account in each one of those funds, if not ADD IT ... use the same tithes and offerings account number as you do for operations.

bayparktreasurer wrote:Ok, I've done that. I have 4030-000 Tithes & Offerings active and showing in all 3 funds.
Now, I had created a 4035-000 Building Fund account and a 4040-000 Youth Group account but if I'm using the 4030-000 Tithes & Offerings I won't need those other 2, correct?

Correct, however, you could have just RENUMBERED those two accounts thus saving any data already in those accounts. If you've not used the two new accounts delete them, and renumber the two old ones to 4030-000. Should have said that originally, would have saved you some time.

NeilZ wrote: In Accounting Fund Setup, just point the Building Accounting fund to the 02-1115-000 checking account, and the 02-4110-000 (I'm assuming) Tithes and offerings account.

bayparktreasurer wrote:I'm sorry, what do you mean, point the Building Accounting fund to the chequing account?

Got ahead of myself, and didn't edit properly. In the Contribution Fund setup, on the Accounting TAB, just point the debit (bank) account to the 02-1115-000 checking, and the credit (income) to the 02-4030-000 (in your case) Tithes & Income

NeilZ wrote:

bayparktreasurer wrote:Ok, I've done that. I have 4030-000 Tithes & Offerings active and showing in all 3 funds.
Now, I had created a 4035-000 Building Fund account and a 4040-000 Youth Group account but if I'm using the 4030-000 Tithes & Offerings I won't need those other 2, correct?

Correct, however, you could have just RENUMBERED those two accounts thus saving any data already in those accounts. If you've not used the two new accounts delete them, and renumber the two old ones to 4030-000. Should have said that originally, would have saved you some time.

Ok, just to make sure I do this right.
Up until now we had been using 4250-106 for Building Fund income (I'm not sure why we have a sub-account number there) and 4230-103 for Youth Group income.
In the Maintain Chart of Accounts screen, account 4250-106 is only showing in Fund 01. If I want to rename it I would add the account to Fund 02 FIRST and then rename it in Fund 02. Is that right? And then I would do the same with the Youth Group account?

bayparktreasurer wrote:

NeilZ wrote:

bayparktreasurer wrote:Ok, I've done that. I have 4030-000 Tithes & Offerings active and showing in all 3 funds.
Now, I had created a 4035-000 Building Fund account and a 4040-000 Youth Group account but if I'm using the 4030-000 Tithes & Offerings I won't need those other 2, correct?

Correct, however, you could have just RENUMBERED those two accounts thus saving any data already in those accounts. If you've not used the two new accounts delete them, and renumber the two old ones to 4030-000. Should have said that originally, would have saved you some time.

Ok, just to make sure I do this right.
Up until now we had been using 4250-106 for Building Fund income (I'm not sure why we have a sub-account number there) and 4230-103 for Youth Group income.
In the Maintain Chart of Accounts screen, account 4250-106 is only showing in Fund 01. If I want to rename it I would add the account to Fund 02 FIRST and then rename it in Fund 02. Is that right? And then I would do the same with the Youth Group account?

If those accounts are NOT in Fund 02 or Fund 03 now, do not do a thing with them. Keep them as they are, as you won't be able to move any history if you add then to the other funds. Just use the tithes & offerings income if they're already there in those funds.

I must apologize as I think I am mixing up several different issues here. To clarify, these are issues still relating to creating new Fund accounts as per this post - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13437

I probably haven't been giving you as much information as I should, partially because I'm not sure what information I need to be providing.

Here is the situation as it stands right now.
At the beginning of this fiscal year which started January 1st, 2019, I was tasked with separating our Building Fund and Youth Group Fund from our regular Operating Fund. We have a separate savings account for both the Building Fund and the Youth Group Fund and want to keep them separate from our regular Operating chequing account.
I have created 2 new funds - 02 - Building Fund and 03 - Youth Group Fund and have copied over all the applicable accounts (I think/hope). I can provide a listing of the accounts that I copied over if that would help.
I have attempted several times to start entering transactions for this fiscal year but keep running into unforeseen issues so I have several backups and have restored back to the beginning of the year and am starting over.
So, to be clear, I have not entered any transactions yet for this year.

My latest confusion comes from the following:

NeilZ wrote:You should have a Tithes and Offerings account in each one of those funds, if not ADD IT ... use the same tithes and offerings account number as you do for operations.

So I went ahead and copied those after the fact as I had not copied those over initially.

bayparktreasurer wrote:Ok, I've done that. I have 4030-000 Tithes & Offerings active and showing in all 3 funds.
Now, I had created a 4035-000 Building Fund account and a 4040-000 Youth Group account but if I'm using the 4030-000 Tithes & Offerings I won't need those other 2, correct?

bayparktreasurer wrote:Ok, so for the Building Fund currently I have it debiting account 02-1120-000 Building Fund savings account and crediting account 02-4035-000 Building Fund income account. But based on your reply below, I should have it crediting 02-4030-000 Tithes & Offerings income account instead?

NeilZ wrote:Correct, however, you could have just RENUMBERED those two accounts thus saving any data already in those accounts. If you've not used the two new accounts delete them, and renumber the two old ones to 4030-000. Should have said that originally, would have saved you some time.

I thought I was following your comments above but then you said this and completely confused me again.

NeilZ wrote:If those accounts are NOT in Fund 02 or Fund 03 now, do not do a thing with them. Keep them as they are, as you won't be able to move any history if you add then to the other funds. Just use the tithes & offerings income if they're already there in those funds.

Are we both talking about the same accounts? Is there any other information that you need to make things clearer? I know I'm probably making this more complicated than it needs to be but I just want to make sure I get everything right before I start entering stuff as I don't want to run into any more issues than I already have.

bayparktreasurer wrote:I must apologize as I think I am mixing up several different issues here. To clarify, these are issues still relating to creating new Fund accounts as per this post - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13437

I probably haven't been giving you as much information as I should, partially because I'm not sure what information I need to be providing.

Here is the situation as it stands right now.
At the beginning of this fiscal year which started January 1st, 2019, I was tasked with separating our Building Fund and Youth Group Fund from our regular Operating Fund. We have a separate savings account for both the Building Fund and the Youth Group Fund and want to keep them separate from our regular Operating chequing account.
I have created 2 new funds - 02 - Building Fund and 03 - Youth Group Fund and have copied over all the applicable accounts (I think/hope). I can provide a listing of the accounts that I copied over if that would help.
I have attempted several times to start entering transactions for this fiscal year but keep running into unforeseen issues so I have several backups and have restored back to the beginning of the year and am starting over.
So, to be clear, I have not entered any transactions yet for this year.

My latest confusion comes from the following:

I thought I was following your comments above but then you said this and completely confused me again.

NeilZ wrote:If those accounts are NOT in Fund 02 or Fund 03 now, do not do a thing with them. Keep them as they are, as you won't be able to move any history if you add then to the other funds. Just use the tithes & offerings income if they're already there in those funds.

Are we both talking about the same accounts? Is there any other information that you need to make things clearer? I know I'm probably making this more complicated than it needs to be but I just want to make sure I get everything right before I start entering stuff as I don't want to run into any more issues than I already have.

OK ... you're right .. the extra data you gave me today helps, knowing that you're starting from Jan 1st with all of this leads me to suggest the following:

1. Since you have not entered anything into the two income accounts you have in 02-building, and 03-youth, we may need them for item 2 below. The primary income account used in CONTRIBUTIONS for Sunday offerings to youth or building should be the 4030-tithes & offerings account in each fund. So, you should have 4030-000 in each Accounting Fund (IE: 01-4030, 02-4030, 03-4030).

2. If you receive any OTHER income for youth or building, use the 02-4035-000 and 03-4040-000. These will be for any funds that come in other than Sunday offerings, say donations to support a youth trip, etc.

3. In Contributions setup, the Building Sunday Offerings fund should have a banking account of 02-1115-000 and income of 02-4030-000. The Youth Sunday Offerings fund should use 03-1115-000, and income of 03-4030-000.

With me so far??

4. Contributions Posting will create transactions that will put the funds in the individual accounting fund accounts.
IE: General tithes will show up in 01-1115-000 checking & 01-4030-000 income, youth will show up in 03-1115-000 checking and 03-4030-000 income, and so on. Thus when you run an I&E report against each fund, you will see the proper income and expenses.

5. When you transfer the funds from checking to the building savings, and youth savings online, you will then enter a transaction in Funds Accounting that will CREDIT 02-1115-000 and DEBIT the 02-1210-000 savings. (I'm not sure of the savings account number, but you get the idea). You'd do the same with the 03 Accounting Fund to move to savings. I'm assuming that the 03 savings account is a different account number, as in 03-1211-000

This will do a few things:
a) All deposits will be reflected in the proper Accounting Fund, so you don't have to 'transfer' funds between accounts.
b) All deposits to the checking account will show up on the same Reconciliation report this is due to the fact that the account is linked across the funds for banking purposes.
c) When you transfer from checking to savings, that will also appear on the Reconciliation under the checks and other deductions, as it would appear on the bank statement showing a 'withdrawl'.
d) When you reconcile the savings accounts, you will see the DEPOSIT listed there as you would on the individual savings statements.

6) When you run an Income & Expense report for each accounting fund, you will see the income appearing in the correct income accounts. Thus showing what comes in as Sunday offerings, and what comes in as other donations. When you run a Cash Management Report you will see what is in each account. If there are funds not transferred to savings in the Youth or Building checking accounts (remember its only ONE checking account but the system will track each separately which makes this so efficient) you will know that. You'll also see how much should be in each savings account. Ideally, if the system is running right and you're doing the deposit from checking to the individual savings (and entering the transactions), you should not see an entry for youth or building checking, but the totals in each savings account.

Then when you run a balance sheet for each fund, you'll get a much better idea of the state of each accounting fund.

Does this help any??

Yes, this helps a lot. I'm pretty sure I've got it straight now.

I'm going to start entering transactions tonight and we'll see if I run into any issues.

Thank you for all your help.