relocate database (and application) to network file server

[NeilZ]

What I've just done is create a mirror drive on our server, running Win2k Server. We didn't have the budget for RAID, but the mirrored drives do the job just as well.

I also have our backup software set to only backup certain directories, and not the entire drive nightly. Weekly, I do the entire machine.

[BrianShoe]

Folks -
I've been running my laptop-installed "shadow installation" successfully for some nine or ten months now; I thought I'd share a recent observation with this community.
Following Jeff's suggestion, I've done the following:
(a) installed PC+ in the C:\Program Files directory. (Call this the "program directory".)
(b) created a separate directory under My Documents (the "data directory"; full path is C:\Documents and Settings\Brian\My Documents\FPUU_PCP_DATA) and copied into it all the folders and non-executable files from C:\Program Files\PCPLUS9.
(c) Pointed the "Start In:" location, in the program shortcut, at the data directory I specified in step (b).

(The operating system is Windows XP Professional.)
I've found that this has worked fine in nearly every situation, but has fouled me up in two circumstances:

1. The June MR for ver. 9 had an update for a number of the reports; these got copied to the program directory, subdirectory rpt_pre. I got concerned when things didn't appear to work when I installed the MR, but everything was fine when I copied the contents of rpt_pre to the corresponding subdirectory of my data directory.

2. More importantly, I've discovered that the Contributions Statement report and the Pledge Statement report don't retrieve data in this installation.
The Contributions Statement correctly lists the pledge/s and the total/s contributed, but doesn't show any of the checks. When I run the same report in our church office (where program and data live all in the same directory structure), the contributions are listed just fine.
The Pledge Statement can't find any data, and shows zeros instead - once again, running it in our church office gives data I would expect.

Now I understand that the installation on my laptop is an unsupported configuration. However, I'm surprised to find instances like this where someone has apparently referenced a hard-coded directory location.

Go back to my original question from last November, but take out the reference to network drives. Especially these days, when:
(1) the standard place for ALL applications is the C:\Program Files directory, and
(2) the system security is set up to deny normal users read/write privileges in the C:\Program Files directory,
. . . it would be EXTREMELY USEFUL for the PC+ installation to allow users to specify, separately, where the progam is to be placed and where the data will live. These could be the same directory on the older Win98 systems (but really folks, those should be getting phased out by now), or could be different locations in systems like Win XP.

Programs should go where programs live, not forced into some separate directory directly off the root. Data tables should live where the user can work with them, and not be forced into the same area as the program. This is a basic system-security concept.

NeilZ - jeffkoke - what are your thoughts on this?

[jeffkoke]

Go back to my original question from last November, but take out the reference to network drives. Especially these days, when:
(1) the standard place for ALL applications is the C:\Program Files directory, and
(2) the system security is set up to deny normal users read/write privileges in the C:\Program Files directory,
. . . it would be EXTREMELY USEFUL for the PC+ installation to allow users to specify, separately, where the progam is to be placed and where the data will live. These could be the same directory on the older Win98 systems (but really folks, those should be getting phased out by now), or could be different locations in systems like Win XP.

Programs should go where programs live, not forced into some separate directory directly off the root. Data tables should live where the user can work with them, and not be forced into the same area as the program. This is a basic system-security concept.

NeilZ - jeffkoke - what are your thoughts on this?

Brian,

I'm glad you have gained sufficient experience in where PC+ puts things and expects where their "home" location to exist.

One of the reasons (as you've already pointed out) for default locations is standardization (and configuration management). PC+ has made the decision to put things in certain places. This is their "standard."

While I have been (accurately) acused of making things too hard to do, I think you are going down that same path.

From my perspective, you are making things more complicated to maintain versus the perceived benefit. This, too is a compromise/trade off, but what I see is more work for you (or someone in your sted) to do whenever an MR comes out or a new computer is placed online.

PC+ has to look at the entire userbase of their product. While there may be many who could accurately move things around to their satisfaction, the vast majority don't have that desire.

From the security perspective, I am of the opinion that group access to specific network shares/drives is more than sufficient. Remember, locks are in place for honest folk. If someone messes with your data, it is incumbent upon you to maintain good backups.

Another issue that will come up is tech support. If I were in charge of tech support, I would cast a heavy vote againt your request. All someone would have to do is click into the wrong directory and the entire PC+ installation would be toast...causing undue calls to tech support.

I'm sure Neil will chime in on this as well.

Jeff

[Jeff]

Brian,

You have to keep in mind that most of our users are sharing PC+ with more than one person, so putting the data files under the users documents & settings would not be appropriate. We are finding that even the smallest churches are now networking 2 or more computers together in a peer to peer environment. They often don't have the benefit of an IT person to help them set this up and we are trying to keep the process as easy as possible.

In version 9 we are now defaulting installation to a C:\PowerChurch\PcPlus9 folder. We chose this so the user could create the share at the PowerChurch folder level and not have to redo all the mappings when a new version is released.

I would agree with you that keeping the program and the data separate is a logically a better design, but it creates several implementation problems. Maintenance Releases, as Jeff pointed out, are the major one. There could be disaterous problems if all machines are not running the same compile. Most churches do not have the technical expertise to make sure MRs get installed everywhere they should. Even at the places that do, it is very easy to forget about the machine in the back room that one volunteer uses quietly once a month to process something.

We have worked out a method that would allow the program to be on the local harddrive and to make sure it gets updated with the latest MR when it is installed. So you will probably see some changes in this area in the future. It does require a fair amount of work and right now doesn't look like it is going to make the cut for version 10 though.

[Tracy]

2. More importantly, I've discovered that the Contributions Statement report and the Pledge Statement report don't retrieve data in this installation.
The Contributions Statement correctly lists the pledge/s and the total/s contributed, but doesn't show any of the checks. When I run the same report in our church office (where program and data live all in the same directory structure), the contributions are listed just fine.
The Pledge Statement can't find any data, and shows zeros instead - once again, running it in our church office gives data I would expect.

What you have seen here, might happen with an invalid DLL in place. If you run a Family report that includes profile listing, you might not see the profiles. There are a couple of steps to get the right DLL back in place. I prefer you call in and talk with the support staff to get these steps.

[BrianShoe]

This picks up the installation issue after several more months, but I thought you'd want to hear the latest observation.

Turns out the "standard" method of installing PC+ in a directory just off the root (i.e. in C:\PowerChurch\PCPLUS9) WON'T WORK in the Windows XP environment.

Qualify that:
(a) Windows XP Professional,
(b) "user" has limited privilege, so an Administrator installs the program.

Item (b) opens up a much larger issue, that is a subject for a different thread - since so many Windows viruses exploit vulnerabilities that exist if the logged-in user has administrator privileges, it is imperative that everyday use occur under user logins with restricted privileges. I get extremely annoyed when commercial software, written by developers who supposedly should know better, assumes the everyday user will have administrative privileges (QuickBooks is a classic example of this nonsense).

End of diatribe.

In any case, since I recently had to replace my laptop (where I run a "shadow" installation of PC+), I tried installing PC+ the expected way, i.e. in a directory just off the root of the C:\ drive. Because of condition (b), I had to be logged in as administrator to do the installation.

Then, on logging in as the normal user (yes, I maintain this distinction even when using my own computer) and opening the new installation of PowerChurch, I immediately got the "cannot update cursor" error. The normal user did not have read/write privileges to this new directory!

I realize there's an installed base running PC+ on machines with older operating systems, and the program has to be kept compatible with that clientele. However, I see a major problem developing as more churches are forced to update their operating systems.

Recall - developer Jeff's solution (re-pointing the "Start in" directory) works for 90% of what we need. It's the absolute directory paths buried in the code that trip up specific reports.

Also - as for making things more complicated than need be. Virtually every other program in the world, these days, automatically installs itself in the C:\Program Files directory - THAT is the expected standard. Many programs also give the installer to (a) make it available to all users, and/or (b) specify where the data files should live.

“Time and money spent in helping men do more for themselves is far better than mere giving.”
- Henry Ford

[NeilZ]

Actually,

If I remembe right, PC Plus does now default to the ProgramFIles directory, I had to manually change the directory as I did not want it on the C: driver.

FWIW ... we run PCP off our server, and have given full control to that directory to all our users in the PC+ group I created on the server.

I've not seen a problem. In your case, I suspect that read/write won't do it, you need to be able to create files, so using Admin give the 'user' full control to the PC+ directory will do the trick.